You can find it at Pharmacies that sell Viagra.........
Sorry, couldn't resist - it is a veneer softener and it reportedly works very well. Someone will be along in a minute with where they bought it since I never used it.
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| First Post and Question http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=15519 |
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| Author: | Richard G [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | First Post and Question |
Hello to all! My name is Richard and I hail from north of the border on Vancouver Island. I am presently on my second build, the first being a pauduk dreadnaught, now at the finishing stage and I'm ready to bend the sides on my second, a 000 wenge. I'll be using a Fox side bender with blanket an would like to know if those who have experience bending wenge soak the sides or simply spritz them? Both sides or ...? |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
Do not soak!!!!!!! I can think of no wood commonly used that would requires soaking. By soaking you open your self up to not cooking out all the added moisture and then becoming susceptible to the sides cupping. So my answer is light spritz only. If you are concerned about the bend timing and cracking the wood then use SuperSoft II a couple days before hand to help plasticize the fiber and make it more flexible and easier to bend. |
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| Author: | z ehley [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
Sorry to semi-diverge on the topic, but I cant search anymore until my account works. I apologies if this has been answered in the past. SuperSoftII, does the wood go back to full strength? How long does this take? Has anyone had any issues down the road from using this on sides? |
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| Author: | Hesh2 [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
Hi Richard and welcome to the OLF! I will add to Michael's very good suggestions that wenge has been reported here on the OLF to not always bend easily. So in addition to perhaps using SuperSoft II be mindful of the bending thickness. I would consider thicknessing the sides to no more then .085, .075 might be better. Again welcome. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
z ehley wrote: Sorry to semi-diverge on the topic, but I cant search anymore until my account works. I apologies if this has been answered in the past. SuperSoftII, does the wood go back to full strength? How long does this take? Has anyone had any issues down the road from using this on sides? My experience is yes in about 10 days. That said it really ever gets weaker just more pliable. |
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| Author: | Dave Higham [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
'Scuse my ignorance but what is Supersoft II? I've Googled and not found anything. I suppose I'm also on the wrong side of the pond. |
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| Author: | Hesh2 [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
You can find it at Pharmacies that sell Viagra......... Sorry, couldn't resist - it is a veneer softener and it reportedly works very well. Someone will be along in a minute with where they bought it since I never used it. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
Dave Higham wrote: 'Scuse my ignorance but what is Supersoft II? I've Googled and not found anything. I suppose I'm also on the wrong side of the pond. it is a glycol based plasticizer commonly used in the preparation and de-curling of veneers. Most veneer supply houses will carry it. It is a real help in dealing with brittle woods. I am not sure of its availability in Europe |
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| Author: | Dave Rector [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
I believe you can order it online from JoeWoodworker's site. |
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| Author: | Guest [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
MichaelP wrote: My experience is yes in about 10 days. That said it really ever gets weaker just more pliable. So, SuperSoft it, bend it, stick it in the mold and let it sit for 10 days before doing anything else? Or can you march ahead and continue on the rims as it goes back to normal? |
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| Author: | Dave Higham [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
Thanks Michael, I know where to look now. With respect to not soaking sides. There are 3 vidoes here of a visit to Canadian luthier Claude Boucher's workshop. The dialogue is in French but that doesn't really matter. In the second video you see how they bend sides. He says that whatever wood they use they get plunged in boiling water for a few minutes before being bent!! They only use Adirondack spruce and at the end he shows their 'Spruce Goose' model which has front, back and sides in spruce. http://www.laguitare.com/2007/boucher/report_af.html By the way, even I have trouble understanding his French. Edit. I should have said that the videos are near the bottom of the page and there's a button for each one under the video window. |
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| Author: | Dave Anderson [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
I got SuperSoft 2 at Veneersupplies.com Good stuff ! |
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| Author: | ChuckH [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
This is helpful to me too. The ends of my planed sides are cupping. I don't have them in the mold yet. I thought I'd first try just heating and bending them back. Think this will work before I try the Supersoft II? |
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| Author: | Kent Chasson [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
I just bent my first set of wenge and I have 3 suggestions. Get it hot. Get it very hot. And get it really very hot. I made mine .085" and bent them like all my other sides...spritz with water, wrap with foil (to keep the water in and prevent staining from dirty slats), heat till things sizzle, bend, let cool, reheat. Let cool. Remove. I usually use my nose instead of a thermometer so I really don't know what temp but when I see steam, hear sizzle, see the sawdust smoking etc, I turn off the heating blanket. When I started to remove the sides from the bender, the spingback was so immediate and so obvious that I clamped things back down and did another heat cycle. Still major springback. After one more long and very hot cycle, it held it's shape. One more caution with wenge. I would stay away from quarter sawn due to it's propensity to split. Rift sawn still has the nice straight grain and should be plenty stable. And have some good splinter tweezers handy. But I sure love the tap tone and the look... By the way, you get any of the sunshine we've had down here the last few days? What a relief! |
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| Author: | Don A [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
Here is the link to a previous thread where a few folks discussed how they use Super Soft. http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=13346&hilit=SUPERSOFT |
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| Author: | Richard G [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
Thanks to MichaelP and Hesh for the information. Helps me approach the bend with a little more confidence. Just read your post Kent, excellent info, thanks to you also! Yes, we finally got to see some rays here in the valley. Funny how even a few hours of shine can overcome weeks of dreariness. |
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| Author: | KenH [ Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
Once the sides are bent and cool, you can march ahead and work the wood normally. SOmething about the heat of bending seems to negate any effects of the supersoft after you bend it. I havent been using it for long, but the last 7 or 8 guitars have been bent using supersoft II. I think I got it from http://www.veneersupplies.com A quart of it will last you a long time but it is more economical in the gallon size. |
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| Author: | John How [ Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
You can pretty much procede with your build and not worry about the supersoft if you use it. Wenge does tend to be a little on the brittle side though so treat it carefully and watch out for those splinters, they are nasty. |
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| Author: | guest [ Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
What part of Vancouver Island are you from?, I live in Courtenay. Did you make your own fox bender? There is a member on here by the name of Scott Mckee who heads up the Vancouver Island Luthiers Group, sounds cool. I have done both soaked and sprayed wood for side bending with similar results. I sprayed my highly figured koa and soaked my maple. The supersoft sounds great, but I have never tried it. Take care. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
ChuckH wrote: This is helpful to me too. The ends of my planed sides are cupping. I don't have them in the mold yet. I thought I'd first try just heating and bending them back. Think this will work before I try the Supersoft II? They are bend and not in the mold yet....tisk tisk.. Really I feel you should get them in the mold and glued up into a rim assembly as soon after they come out of the bender as possible. less spring back and less chance to damage them. On the cupping issue most likely this is cause by residual added moisture that did not get cooked out during the bend. The ends are the first place to exhibit this. Next set use far less water when you spritz prior to the bend and even less that last 2"-4" as that area really gets no bend. Keep the side clamped in till it has cooled overnight. This will help cut down on the cupping. With most woods thinned to .08-.085" it take very little added moister to induce the steam need to soften the wood for the bend |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
I agree with Michael. I noticed, when I was bending Zebra Wood, for instance, that it really likes, best, to be bent very dry and very hot (350 - 400*). I had some cupping issues too, and when I went dry, they stopped. Now I can leave my sides sitting on the workbench over night, and just drop them into place on the Solera, and they have not changed at all. The dryer, you can accomplish a bend, the better. I think I remember reading that in a recent thread too. Who did the automatic bending machine? That's the one. |
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| Author: | Guest [ Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
I also live on Van Isle - whereabouts are you located? Im always interested to meet luthiers in the area... Cheers Charliewood |
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| Author: | Richard G [ Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
Hello Charliewood, I'm from Port Alberni. I'm not sure if it was you who asked if I had plans for a fox side bender. I am lucky enough to have a friend who has the LMI version so I'm putting of getting my own for the time being. If you get out this way PM me and we can get together. |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First Post and Question |
Before you super soft it you should read Michael's post in the archives on technique. I think it went something like this: Soak the wood on both sides and wrap in paper. Lay them on a flat board and cover it with another board. Weight the boards and let the sides dry, changing the paper in a day or so. When completely dry, about two days, bend as usual. I believe he said don't bend them wet or you would get stains on the sides. Good luck! |
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